Alastair has left a new comment on your post "Cha cha cha. . boom diddley boom boom. . . . .":
Justin, I have the utmost respect for RCs at the grass roots level like yourself and your friends and family. It doesn't surprise me at all that you know loads of folk who are in favour of equality for all humanity. It is, after all, what Jesus taught.
The problem is that the RC hierarchy seems to be hell bent (and I choose the phrase advisedly) on strengthening their bigotry and prejudice against the gay community. I don't know enough about how the RC church works but do the normal, reasonable people such as yourself have any input to change things further up the tree?
Justin, I have the utmost respect for RCs at the grass roots level like yourself and your friends and family. It doesn't surprise me at all that you know loads of folk who are in favour of equality for all humanity. It is, after all, what Jesus taught.
The problem is that the RC hierarchy seems to be hell bent (and I choose the phrase advisedly) on strengthening their bigotry and prejudice against the gay community. I don't know enough about how the RC church works but do the normal, reasonable people such as yourself have any input to change things further up the tree?
My quick reply was "Absolutely not! " Then I said I wanted to work on this and try to give an answer which Alastair's question deserves.
In the National Catholic Reporter, a newspaper started about 50 years ago, with a definite "Vatican II Church Renewal " slant, this current week after the "Wedding of the Year" on TV, and the breaking news of the capture and killing of Osuma bin Laden on Sunday night, there appeared on Monday morning a shocking article about the removal Bishop Bill Morris, a highly regarded and loved Australian pastor, by Pope Benedict XVI. I will give you the link for you to read for yourselves "in the privacy of a brown paper bag"...LOL. . the whole story.
To 'savor' the entire story in all its injustice and detail I urge and invite you to read the entire article, plus all the various click-on references. If you want to know --- and I hope you will -- please scroll down and read/scan through the various comments from NCR readers, most of whom are laypeople, I suspect there are a few clergy and religious. Many writers are signed in as "annonymous".
A few of the comments are cranky. . .but they are all expressive of the rather common thought and feeling of Catholics all over the world.
Without further comment from me, I will leave you read these reports and commentaries for yourselves. I will reply to any questions and/or comments as needed. I believe NCR does quite accurate reporting, perhaps in some minds a bit more slanted in the direction of openness and progressive thinking with little tolerance of "Pray, Pay, Obey Catholicism". ;-) Oopps, I said no further comments from me. LOL
justin o'shea
http://ncronline.org/news/women/pope-removes-bishop-who-expressed-openness-ordaining-women
http://ncronline.org/news/women/pope-removes-bishop-who-expressed-openness-ordaining-women
17 comments:
Justin,
You are so right in saying there
is no leeway in the RC and will
be for longer than we can forsee.
Bishop Morris should not have to
defend his self. We have to Pray
that things will change. LOL
I remember a couple of Seminarians
that we would take to meetings.
They thought back in the mid'60s that before they became Priests that the Pope at that time would change rules so that Priests could marry. LOL
There are reasons why churches other than Catholic exist, churches such as Anglican, Methodist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Orthodox Greek and Russian, Baptist, Mormon and others. And it's not hard to figure out why.
The Catholic heirarchy insists that it's not the role of sheep to tell the shepherd how to run the show. Hehe.
Oh! If the RC only knew what they had with people of like minds like yourself Justin! They couldn`t `pay`for the time and energy being spent by yourself and others in `defense`of this institution.
I guess a few of us would wonder why not put your energies into a like-minded church, or Christian sect rather than `banging your heads against the wall` of this unresponsive, ungrateful and very archaic institution.
I my humble opinion your efforts would be put to better use and you would be much better appreciated.
I do not mean to offend anyone, but a quirk(?) of the intremanet (sic-Homer Simpson) was pointed out to me recently.
Check out the suggested search fields you get when you type "why are religious people" and "why are religious people so" in Google.
I'm not sure what conclusions you can draw from this, if any, but negativity comes to mind......
There was only one positive sounding search suggestion.
Assuming that the search fields are generated by the most oft asked questions, it does not appear that religion is well received by those that are not religious?
Is it any wonder.
War, intolerance and inequality come to mind.
I don't see that the heads of the various religions are any different to the rest of humanity.
There are good and bad and it appears that the good are not in the overwhelming majority.
These are my Sunday morning musings, confusings, call 'em what you will.
The sun has just broken through, time to take the dog for a walk.
I took your suggestion, GIA, and did the Google thing.
It reminded me of the most devastating news I'd ever heard. I was 9 years old in 4th grade when a bitchy girl named Yvonne told me I was a fool for believing in Santa Claus.
So nowadays it seems to me that if you wanna tell someone who believes in Santa that they're an idiot - or you're an athiest who wants to tell people they're dickheads for believing in God - then you've gotta be a bitch. Hehe.
No offense to you personally, GIA, but it's not easy being a committed athiest. If you're a Christian and you wanna tell people about God, no problem. You're praised for your efforts. But for us non-believers, we have to be far more diplomatic in case we offend peoples' sensitivities.
Funny old world, yes?
HI ALL, , just checking in to see hwat all y'all are up to. I appreciate your comments.opinions.etc.
You know, Jim, my chosen profession is one in which I think I can do a lot of good for others. . .in the lealing therapy --working with people who are "hurting"in all the different ways we hurt,-- I have the chance to put into action, quietly, all the things i say i believe. . treating others with care and compassion, love and empathy, honesty and integrity, perhaps giving them some thing vital to their lives...love for them selves and allowing others to love them as they are,understanding and acceptance and on and on. . .I do not need to "talk religion". . I need to live faith and love.
Being and doing "loving as Jesus loved" is far more important than fighting and arguing about rules and all the other "trash" that makes people bitter and angry. . a little bit of loving kindness goes much further than all the words and bureacracy, etc etc etc. . .that drive people out.
Well, so much for now. .I could go on and on. . but I am interested in what you have to say. There are a lot of us lovers and doers in the church; we dont get the attention that all the angry hurt people do. . moreover, we are not looking for attention. . .we're too busy "washing feet". . . .;-)
justin
I agree Gary, I have no wish to offend, I am simply stating my views.
But as I read your comment I wondered if in fact I am agnostic or atheist.
I guess I've always defined myself as agnostic because atheism has always seemed to me to be too harsh, too offensive perhaps. I'm not an offensive person.
So I decided to finally decide which one I am. A good subject for a Sunday morning, how appropriate, ha!
According to Wiki;
"Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.
In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.
Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist"
I guess the term does cover my non-belief, but could be misinterpreted to give the impression that I am a rabid anti-religious person who preaches his non-belief, which I'm not.
"Live and let live" is who I am.
I simply have a more logical, more scientific and mathematical view when it comes to probabilities.
I don't deny it can/does exist, but scientific evidence and probabilities, as we know them, point to the negative.
But if I saw proof, incontrovertible proof, then I'd believe. So far, I've not seen enough to even make me doubt, not one tinny little bit.
Now, please don't anyone take my ramblings as a superior stance, a holier than thou stance (hee hee)...these views of mine are just that, views.
I do hold with what is the best of Christian beliefs as far as how we should act and treat others of course, but I see those actions as part of what we are, human.
Evolution.
That is what we are going through. We need to get on with each other in order to survive. Somehow man has made it this far even with his self-destructive leanings...but eventually, evolution will prove how this all turns out. We'll still be here, or we wont.
Sheesh! It's amazing where my ramblings lead me...I'll have to think more on this just as Justin had to take stock of the original question of this subject. Sorry for highjacking, but I see it as all part of the same question.
Unfortunately the church, the leaders need to evolve more, they need to evolve closer to what the majority believe...and I think you are correct Justin, there are a healthy number of religious friends of mine that are not in the slightest narrow minded as the church leaders, RC in particular, seem to be.
Now I'll go have some lunch and cogitate further.
Have a great day everybody.
After my last post I sat idly thinking and googling....and guess what? I discovered I'm perhaps more correctly described by someone who follows "Christian atheism".
Google it.
Thanks Justin for your response. I really do appreciate what you are doing and better understand what now how you rationalize your position in the RC. Have a great Sunday!
First, let me explain the Aussie expression "having two bob each way". It's a punter who backs a horse for a win and/or a place rather than a win only.
And now back to atheism. I can understand a person's unwillingness to proclaim himself an athiest because it's "too harsh" or "offensive". Ever since day one, various religions have labeled non-believers as pagans, infidels, sinners and pretty much all-round bad guys who are destined for eternity in hell.
Many athiests choose to have two bob each way and call themselves agnostics, which means they're not sure one way or the other about the existence of God. Even if they are convinced there's no God, they're not gonna admit it, especially in a Christian country, for fear of rejection, ridicule, etc.
For me, it took quite a bit of courage to accept myself an athiest, and to be honest about it. I am aware that certain people are automatically offended by my being an athiest. Some see it as an insult to God. But I'd rather be fair dinkum than have two bob each way.
By the way, JustinO, I've been meaning to congratulate you on your willingness to dedicate your life to helping others. It's a pretty noble cause ya know, and it takes a pretty special person to be inclined that way.
Thank you, Gary. You are very kind and I do appreciate your supportive encouragement.
I find what I am preparing for and doing a challenge and a source of satisfaction in seeing the resourcefulness of people working with help to achieve a happy and successful state in their lives. . .growing into happier people.
In many ways it is similar to the creativity and nourishing support of parenting. . . therapeutic healing work is life-giving and life sharing. . .a constant challenge for me to keep on growing, maturing, learning, loving. You know the old saying:
No one gives what he does not have.
I already see some of the success and satisfaction my personal and professional life will bring. It is an awesome adventure. I have been blessed with the people who've helped me reach this stage. What I've been given I have to share. . or else "the spring dries up. . "
ciao ciao. .
JustinO
Fair comment Mr Kelly, I know of many people like this, but let me say that I, I am no punter.
I am a black and white person, in the main.
I don't waste my time by spending hard earned money on chance. In fact I've never bet money on a race and have never bought a lottery ticket of my own.
I am not a "bob each way" sort of person. Too practical, too bloody tight with my money...haha!
So I'd like to make it clear that I do have solid views on religion, on the existence of various Gods etc. and if I were a betting man, I'd certainly stake the lot one way, on there being no such thing, not a bit each way.
And Mr Kelly, you are correct, I know myself to be an atheist, but only in the true definition of the word.
Unfortunately there are many people out there, religious people who understand this view, these atheists, as threatening, and I'm not a threatening person.
After all, it is only my opinion for which there is no hard conclusive and definitive evidence, one way or the other.
As I previously wrote, over the years I've publicly stated that I am a non-believer....an agnostic rather than an athiest so that I could avoid conflict or argument over something that no-one can conclusively resolve, one way or another....a pointless exercise.
In general I usually don't waste my breath preaching opinion on unprovable subjects, I tend to take the more scientific tack and deal in fact.....and right at this moment, guess what? ... I find myself preaching opinions....haha!
So, put my money in a win for "NO" Mr Kelly please, and I'll keep my reputation for never having personally placed a bet.
Further thoughts on the subject (yeah I'm slow at it!)
Gary wrote:
"Many athiests choose to have two bob each way and call themselves agnostics, which means they're not sure one way or the other about the existence of God. Even if they are convinced there's no God, they're not gonna admit it, especially in a Christian country, for fear of rejection, ridicule, etc."
Touche Mr Kelly, "rejection, ridicule" that's why I did not come not publicly....
I simply wanted to avoid people not liking me.
Hmm...Coop, I'm a bit confused over your comment and need to think more on it.
I've read, and re-read it a few times and it raises more questions than answers. About religion, your beliefs and you.
But it is very interesting indeed, making me think more....and that is always good, and fun.
A few years ago I had a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses call to my door on a Sunday morning. So we all had a friendly little chat on my veranda.
After a while, the head JW realized he wasn't getting anywhere with me, so he said, "You're a thinker?" And then he and his sidekick left.
GIA's comment to Coop about thinking reminded me of that.
Anyway, it seemed to me that the JW was more or less saying that if you're a thinker, then you can't be a believer.
Hehe. Oh, well...
Gee. . ..Gary. . .I do both. . one helps the other!
So maybe I am bi- rritual??/ hahahahahahahahahahaaa
JustinO
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