Tuesday, June 1, 2010


NOTE: I moved Stew's comments and my reply from the maze of stuff in the previous post. So much there Stew's posting is easily lost/ unseen. ;-). . . I repent: I promise to better edit my postings. . . .lol. . . . .justin
Blogger Stew said...

What's amazing to me is that they have obviously known eachother long enough to have a commitment cerimony, and violate the laws against such a thing. Yet still, the family doesn't want her in their village. Sounds to me like a family that doesn't really know their nephew. Or care about his feelings.
Typically that's what changes peoples minds. The fact that someone that they know and love is gay. It happened with my own father. You would think that a close family would do anything they could to allow them to be together despite the laws.
Maybe their religion is so strict that peoples feelings don't matter. Only the rules.

June 1, 2010 12:17 PM

Blogger JustinO'Shea said...

Civil law in all contries in Africa, with the exception of the country of SouthAfrica, prohibit any form of homosexuality. It is considered so counter-cultural that it can be punished by life imprisonment and/ or
In Uganda 2 persons 'thought' to be gay can be arrested for being together over a cup of coffee.

Remember the two teenagers in Iran a couple summers ago who were arrested, tried, convicted, sentenced to death on charge of homosexuality. The photos of these boys being led to and actually being hanged was in the press the world over. It was horrible! KIDS!!! {both under 16 or so]

Some religious leaders in Africa, especially prominent Anglican Bishops support the death penalty for homosexuality. These African Anglicans are "not in fellowship" with the Anglican (Episcopal Church USA) over the election of an openly Gay, partnered bishop in New Hampshire. The issue of homosexuality and ordination of gays and women priests and bishops is threatening the unity of the worldwide Anglican Communion. Most of the African Anglican Bishops [with the exception of Archbp Desmond Tutu of Capetown, SA] have broken bonds with the rest of the Anglican Church.

I am happy personally to report that the Catholic Church does not support or approve in any way these violent measures against homosexuality.

Culturally, homosexuality is totally against the norms and tribal customs of the the African people, and is not accepted or supported in any way. If this transgendered person is unwanted in her town by her family, no surprise.

I could go on and on from history among african religions from courses I have taken on the inbred cultural prohibitions practiced in most Third-World Countries. . . .but I refrain. . .LOLOL


June 1, 2010 2:26 PM



Jabacue said...

I can see that in Third World countries the churches still have a lot of power to influence laws regarding homosexuality and everything else for that matter. Until those countries realize the importance of the notion of ``separation of church and state``, religious institutions will wield more power than they ought to.

JustinO'Shea said...

Good. How many countries actually have a legal policy of "separation of church and state"?

Many/some/all? African countries though no longer colonies of foreign powers are still influenced by the Empires which once upon a time owned, ruled and enslaved them. leaving them with imposed religions, far removed from their native Animism.

How teach the African fundamentalists who have succeeded their foreign mentors to let go of the reins. . . .aka control. . . ;-)

Most of the religious "powers" who evangelized them were biblically funadamentalist missionaries. Now "the birds" they hatched have come home to bite them! So to speak. . .

Stew said...

I have no idea how long these two have been together. Or if they were having a commitment cerimony so that they may be together in the future. (Many religions dictate that you must be married to "be together")
It just suprises me that it got to that point at all. And since it got that far, that their families were not on board with it.
I understand about the religion and the laws, I'm just suprised that it wasn't stopped long ago as I'm sure that they may have already enjoyed a cup of coffee together. After all, have you ever had African coffee?

Gary Kelly said...

Anything we don't understand we tend to be suspicious of, which leads to superstition.

And that's all I'm saying.

J said...

If you'll pardon the expression, I say Amen to Jabacue's observation. But don't limit the observation to Africa. In the States religious fundamentalists are attempting to convince the nation that we were a Christian country, notwithstanding the numerous anti-christian observations of people like John Adams, Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin. The strictest of separationists may have been Roger Williams, the founder of Rhode Island, a lawyer turned preacher whose expulsion from Plymouth convinced him that government and religion should never get in bed together. Unfortunately the modern juridical tendency to exempt "ceremonial" religious references from the ban of strict separation has jammed the fundamentalist foot in the door of the state. The origin of the exception, I believe, is found in the political pragmatism of James Madison, the father of the Constitutiion, who in his old age was asked whether it was a violation of the separation clause for Congress to open with a prayer. He concluded that it was, but that it was so trivial that it wasn't worth disputing.
There's something to be said for Justice Hugo Black's simple principle that the Constitution means what it says. His brand of strict constructionism resulted in Engel v. Vitale, which banned prayer in the public schools. Where's Hugo when we need him?
As for Africa, they don't call it the Dark Continent for nothing. Ugandan "divines" urging the execution of gays is nothing compared with the rape and genocide that is a daily occurence in Congo and, formerly, Rwanda.
I apologize for the rant, but this subject really gets my blood up.

JustinO'Shea said...

ho ho ho. . . .this strikes me funny bone:
"If you'll pardon the expression, I say Amen...." as preamble to The Rant. . . ho ho ho

Hmmmm. . .a religious AMEN when convenient. . .??? ho ho ho

justin. . . .and, on that note, off to bed! Amen, amen and amen. Ahhhh men!!!

Coop said...

Jabacue has the right idea about separation between church and state.

Africa is VERY different from the U.S. and Europe; in that it is full of tribal societies. That's not a bad thing. However, I feel that it should be contrasted with Europe and the United States; where there is an emphasis on individual freedom. I don't think there is a tradition of acceptance in African tribes like there is in Native American trbes.

Also, I've heard that many Christian missionaries and churches are still active in Africa. Unfortunately, they are spreading Phelp's message.

Finally... control. I believe that many religious and political "leaders" want to control dignity and salvation. Being able to point to a Gay person, a Trans person, an agnostic, an unmarried woman who is pregnant, and proclaim "SINNER" makes them feel better and gives their flock a sense of security.
It isn't just religion. Look at the mayor of Moscow and elected officials in the U.S.

Gary Kelly said...

Atheism keeps it very simple. There are no denominations.

JustinO'Shea said...

Yes indeed. . .they keep it very simple. . ."all dressed up and no place to go". . . .hehehe



Gary Kelly said...

Yes, JustinO, you are very naughty indeed. But then we've come to expect that from you.

Coop said...

As usual, I thought of something else to add hours after I posted my comment. It was about the genocide and apartheid going on. J has already mentioned it.
I don't understand WHY some cultures are willing to exterminate others just because they are different. I just know that it happens.

JustinO'Shea said...

Hey there COOPS my man!
Well, like so many other things it appears the human beast -- we haven't moved far from the deep dark bush -- witness our inability to clean up the messes we make, literally and figuratively, like in the Gulf of Mexico. Well the violence, cruelties and even genocides we visit upon one another are all means of "self protection". . we get rid of stuff which threatens us. . one way or another.. . .even to killing it/them.

We remain rather primitive. Maybe there is still a chance. . .maybe evolution is still going on and some day we might get it figured out!


Gary Kelly said...

Maybe evolution is still going on?


JustinO'Shea said...


" i am a work of art in process"

ho ho ho