As a Native American, I would love to hear how Arizona's Natives are liking this. Since they didn't ask for any of these people to come in and take over. This nation was built by imigrants.
Is it racial profiling? Yes, probably, but so what? Discrimination in all forms is deemed unconstitutional only if it is invidious; that is, it singles out a group for intrusive scrutiny without an objectively reasonable justification. The US Supreme Court has held that there is nothing wrong with considering a persons's race as a basis for inquiry or detention if there is such a reasonable basis for doing so. If the police have a credible report that a crime has been committed by an hispanic male in his 20's who is 5' 7" tall, there's nothing wrong with stopping only hispanic males of that age and height. There's nothing wrong with giving muslims from the Near East special strutiny during a terror threat in New York. A failure to profile in such a situation would itself be immoral, because it would needlessly subject the law-abiding to grave danger. The illegal immigration lobby would have us ignore the reality that the Southwest is innundated with penniless Mexican and Central American indian illegals. They are turning the border cities into a violent, crime-riddled carbon copy of Mexico, which is rapidly becoming a corrupt, failed narco-state. As far as I am concerned, this is a justification for subjecting such people to special scrutiny. The people of Arizona are under seige. And for those who consider such measures extreme even in an emergency, I suggest that they recall that even Lincoln suspended the Writ of Habeas Corpus during the Civil War and incarcerated thousands of people for years without benefit of charge or trial during the national emergency. This law merely extends the same remedies available under Federal law to state and local police. Does Arizona want to do this? No, but the spineless, craven politicans in Washington won't police the border or enforce the law of the land. Bush didn't do it because he didn't want to offend the businesses that relied on cheap illegal labor. Obama doesn't want to do it because he sees poor Latinos as potential voters who will back his give-away agenda. So we are subjected to mass demonstrations ginned up by the illegal lobby, the labor unions and socialists and leftists of all stripes, waving their Mexican flags, shouting their intellectually dishonest rhetoric and maintaining that once an illegal is here he has a right to citizenship. Yes,if we accept this dangerous cant as the truth we will no longer be a nation, but merely a venue, where anyone who wants free education, welfare benefits and free medical treatment can decamp and live on the fat of the land. This is madness. You want open borders, Gary? Then tell the Austrailian and New Zealand governments to stop interdicting the hordes of muslims from Afganistan, Pakistan and Malasia and tell them to hop on the next boat. If you think the riots on your beaches of a couple of years ago were nasty, wait until they become a regular occurance. And we in the States shouldn't stop there. Let's tell all the wretched people of Haiti to come on over and turn Florida into one large Port au Prince. Enlightened nations permit immigration, but not to the detriment of their economies or the welfare of their present citizenry. I do not want to live in a third world country. But that is where this mob wants to lead us. I'll bet that if the police started asking for the papers of these demonstrators they'd evaporate. You gentlemen have no idea how much anger is building up in this country against this border mess, and I for one want to see all the illegal immigration panderers swept from public office. I can assure you that I am putting my money where my mouth is on this issue.
THANKS, J, for your position-paper. . .very instructive. Reading this I see how little I know about this issue. The issue of making FLORIDA or ARIZONA into third-world venues is alarming. . .and disastrous. . . wow. There IS the issue of justice and not at the expense of current residents and owners.
J hit the nail on the head with his comment about Bush not doing anything about it so as not to offend employers looking for cheap labor. And that's where we need to start. Stop the employers from hiring under the table. That's already against the law. It's already against the law to hire someone that is not legally able to work in the United States. These employers looking to save a buck on wages and taxes are the problem. They encourage the imagrants to come and they skirt paying taxes which BTW hurts everyone. Being an employer myself, I know how hard it is to pay my staff sometimes. But, I do it and I pay the taxes too. Even if it means that I don't get paid. There are more creative ways to cut cost and even more creative ways to increase income. To resort to hiring illegals hurts everyone. And who could blame someone that's starving in their home country to come here and work, when the average person here wants to make 100k or nothing at all. So I guess you could blame the greedy American's as well. We want to pay less for our toys and make more money. I live neer Detroit and have watched what that kind of greed can do to a city. If things continue the way they are, the whole country will look like Detroit. And trust me, it's not pretty. And there was a lot fewer illegals here. Detroit's fate was sealed by the residents themselves. A whole city based on one thing.... overpriced, poorly made, and technology deficiant cars. All built by morons making 80grand a year. And if I recall, you have to be a resident here to be able to vote. So yeah, the problem isn't the imagrants. It's US. We encourage it and then complain about it and blame everyone else. Last year, when my husband and I visited Provincetown and Plymouth, he was excited to see "where it all began" and I corrected him and said " You meen where we were invaded". But I'm not bitter, I accept everyone. I just want everyone to own their own screw-ups.
For a post that didn't even post right, it was a good one Justin. Thanks.
THANK YOU, MR KELLY for your kudo. I too am pleased with the intelligent back-and-forth posted here. There are many intelligent guys and gals around: I just wish more of them would comment.
I am always eager to learn and to read differing views on things: helps expand my Cape Cod insular thinking. . .hahaha.
There is SO MUCH MORE going on than on campus and home near Provincetown.
Thanks for sticking by Justin Dunes! The Same Justin. ;-)
12 comments:
As a Native American, I would love to hear how Arizona's Natives are liking this. Since they didn't ask for any of these people to come in and take over. This nation was built by imigrants.
A nation that won't enforce its borders is no nation at all.
Good points made. . ..I guess. . .this is a very emotion-laiden issue; isn't it.
Arguments on both sides. . ..right?
SO what do we do? think? say?
Is it written in a book somewhere?
justin
Is ARizona'S RACIAL PROFILING a good law? Is it morally right? Or is it just another example of a police state. . . . . . .?
I dont know a lot, but what I think is that RP is rotten!!!
Hitler tried to purify the Aryan race and failed.
And if J's comment is valid, then Native Americans, as well as Native Australians, have no claim on the country of their origin.
Is it racial profiling? Yes, probably, but so what? Discrimination in all forms is deemed unconstitutional only if it is invidious; that is, it singles out a group for intrusive scrutiny without an objectively reasonable justification. The US Supreme Court has held that there is nothing wrong with considering a persons's race as a basis for inquiry or detention if there is such a reasonable basis for doing so. If the police have a credible report that a crime has been committed by an hispanic male in his 20's who is 5' 7" tall, there's nothing wrong with stopping only hispanic males of that age and height. There's nothing wrong with giving muslims from the Near East special strutiny during a terror threat in New York. A failure to profile in such a situation would itself be immoral, because it would needlessly subject the law-abiding to grave danger. The illegal immigration lobby would have us ignore the reality that the Southwest is innundated with penniless Mexican and Central American indian illegals. They are turning the border cities into a violent, crime-riddled carbon copy of Mexico, which is rapidly becoming a corrupt, failed narco-state. As far as I am concerned, this is a justification for subjecting such people to special scrutiny. The people of Arizona are under seige. And for those who consider such measures extreme even in an emergency, I suggest that they recall that even Lincoln suspended the Writ of Habeas Corpus during the Civil War and incarcerated thousands of people for years without benefit of charge or trial during the national emergency. This law merely extends the same remedies available under Federal law to state and local police. Does Arizona want to do this? No, but the spineless, craven politicans in Washington won't police the border or enforce the law of the land. Bush didn't do it because he didn't want to offend the businesses that relied on cheap illegal labor. Obama doesn't want to do it because he sees poor Latinos as potential voters who will back his give-away agenda. So we are subjected to mass demonstrations ginned up by the illegal lobby, the labor unions and socialists and leftists of all stripes, waving their Mexican flags, shouting their intellectually dishonest rhetoric and maintaining that once an illegal is here he has a right to citizenship. Yes,if we accept this dangerous cant as the truth we will no longer be a nation, but merely a venue, where anyone who wants free education, welfare benefits and free medical treatment can decamp and live on the fat of the land.
This is madness. You want open borders, Gary? Then tell the Austrailian and New Zealand governments to stop interdicting the hordes of muslims from Afganistan, Pakistan and Malasia and tell them to hop on the next boat. If you think the riots on your beaches of a couple of years ago were nasty, wait until they become a regular occurance. And we in the States shouldn't stop there. Let's tell all the wretched people of Haiti to come on over and turn Florida into one large Port au Prince.
Enlightened nations permit immigration, but not to the detriment of their economies or the welfare of their present citizenry. I do not want to live in a third world country. But that is where this mob wants to lead us. I'll bet that if the police started asking for the papers of these demonstrators they'd evaporate.
You gentlemen have no idea how much anger is building up in this country against this border mess, and I for one want to see all the illegal immigration panderers swept from public office. I can assure you that I am putting my money where my mouth is on this issue.
THANKS, J, for your position-paper. . .very instructive. Reading this I see how little I know about this issue.
The issue of making FLORIDA or ARIZONA into third-world venues is alarming. . .and disastrous. . . wow.
There IS the issue of justice and not at the expense of current residents and owners.
Sometimes you gotta give J a prod to see if he's awake or asleep. And he's pretty interesting when he's awake.
Hehe.
He normally charges for all that stuff ya know.
Anyway, I think what he's basically saying is that if you sleep with dogs you get fleas.
YOU're correct, GARY. . .good stuff there. Cool head, not muddled by the emotional issues. . . .yet not a 'think machine' either. Good balance.
J hit the nail on the head with his comment about Bush not doing anything about it so as not to offend employers looking for cheap labor. And that's where we need to start. Stop the employers from hiring under the table. That's already against the law. It's already against the law to hire someone that is not legally able to work in the United States. These employers looking to save a buck on wages and taxes are the problem. They encourage the imagrants to come and they skirt paying taxes which BTW hurts everyone. Being an employer myself, I know how hard it is to pay my staff sometimes. But, I do it and I pay the taxes too. Even if it means that I don't get paid. There are more creative ways to cut cost and even more creative ways to increase income. To resort to hiring illegals hurts everyone. And who could blame someone that's starving in their home country to come here and work, when the average person here wants to make 100k or nothing at all. So I guess you could blame the greedy American's as well. We want to pay less for our toys and make more money. I live neer Detroit and have watched what that kind of greed can do to a city. If things continue the way they are, the whole country will look like Detroit. And trust me, it's not pretty. And there was a lot fewer illegals here. Detroit's fate was sealed by the residents themselves. A whole city based on one thing.... overpriced, poorly made, and technology deficiant cars. All built by morons making 80grand a year. And if I recall, you have to be a resident here to be able to vote.
So yeah, the problem isn't the imagrants. It's US. We encourage it and then complain about it and blame everyone else.
Last year, when my husband and I visited Provincetown and Plymouth, he was excited to see "where it all began" and I corrected him and said " You meen where we were invaded". But I'm not bitter, I accept everyone. I just want everyone to own their own screw-ups.
For a post that didn't even post right, it was a good one Justin. Thanks.
It's interesting to read a Native American's point of view as well as J's. Just goes to show that nothing is as simple as it seems.
And I think Justin O'Shea deserves a pat on the back for attracting such intelligent comment to his blog.
THANK YOU, MR KELLY for your kudo.
I too am pleased with the intelligent back-and-forth posted here. There are many intelligent guys and gals around: I just wish more of them would comment.
I am always eager to learn and to read differing views on things: helps expand my Cape Cod insular thinking. . .hahaha.
There is SO MUCH MORE going on than on campus and home near Provincetown.
Thanks for sticking by Justin Dunes!
The Same Justin. ;-)
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